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Iurus	Military Philosophy		Lead	[-]
Posts: 2909 06/25/08 4:17 PM	Tags : None I'm wondering if we're gonna find a definable split here, or just an all-out brawl. The saying is that all's fair in love and war. I don't believe so with love, but I certainly do once it truly comes down to war. Ruthless pragmatists will always slaughter the idealists in the real world, for better or for worse. What's your view? Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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MizzeeOH		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1517 06/25/08 5:18 PM	This is a tough issue... hmm..... I think for one, no matter what, genocide is completely and totally wrong. I'll have more descriptive thoughts once more people post, I guess.... "The deeds of heroes send ripples spreading through the Force. Anakin's life continues to flow outward, touching and guiding those who have yet to hear his name. Most of us here use the Force-this young man embodied it." -Kyp Durron
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Iurus		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2916 06/25/08 6:04 PM	Just to throw it out there Mizz, what about the Yuuzhan Vong war? When an entire species, or group of people, holds blindly to beliefs that any species other than themselves must either be sacrificed or become their slaves? Would this justify destroying every member of that religion? Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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MizzeeOH		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1518 06/25/08 6:32 PM	Even then, not justified. No matter the race, not every one of them can be evil, horrible people. "The deeds of heroes send ripples spreading through the Force. Anakin's life continues to flow outward, touching and guiding those who have yet to hear his name. Most of us here use the Force-this young man embodied it." -Kyp Durron
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Anonymous170694		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 643 06/25/08 9:08 PM	In my opinion, it will justify total war using any means possible to win. However, once a surrender is offered, I'd accept a surrender if the enemy is clearly disarmed and does not intend to fight on. Genocide in my opinion would refer to the deliberate and targeted massacre of civilians belonging to one race in any occasion other than military warfare Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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MyriAntilles		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 617 06/25/08 10:01 PM	Interesting topic, Iurus. Just today I cracked the cover of Roméo Dallaire's book on the Rwandan genocide. I suspect I'll have had my horizons broadened by the time I turn the last page. I'll wait until then to weigh in. "Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you respond to it." ~ Unknown
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MizzeeOH		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1522 06/26/08 12:36 AM	In my opinion, it will justify total war using any means possible to win. In many cases, the means does not justify the end. For example: Killing innocents to achieve a goal. That is, of course, NOT justified. "The deeds of heroes send ripples spreading through the Force. Anakin's life continues to flow outward, touching and guiding those who have yet to hear his name. Most of us here use the Force-this young man embodied it." -Kyp Durron
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Iurus		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2926 06/26/08 1:07 AM	Killing innocents to save innocents? In some positions, everything you do will cause the death of innocents- the people who make drug policy, for example: many families rely on that income to live. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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Anonymous170694		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 647 06/26/08 2:32 AM	I'm sorry, but bombing a place, and killing innocents in the process is part of war. An artillery strike might accidentally take out a house. Etc. Its called collateral damage in warfare. No war has occurred without this at least since guns were invented, and no war is ever likely to. Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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revmacd		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1702 06/26/08 7:53 AM	Hmm......you're never one to shy away from the tough questions are you Iurus? I shall spend my day composing some thoughts on this. I look forward to reading the ideas and opinions of these bright young minds as well. Ok, I've had all day to consider it. I must say it's a lot deeper question than it sounds like at first glance. Everyone who has ever fought a war has thought they held the moral high ground and therefor any actions they take to defeat their enemy can be justified as necessary. Well, except maybe Kahn. He knew he was conquering for the sake of conquering. Everyone else from the Romans to Alexander the Great. to the Ottomans and even the Nazis all thought they had some grand destiny. Some right to rule granted to them by the almighty himself. A fine case of "whatever gets you through the night" I suppose. Then there were those who were on the receiving end of such conquest. The nations of Europe changed hands many times. Jarusalem has been ruled by every religion on Earth i think at one time or another. Are the rules the same for them? The Geneva Conventions and The Hague Conventions began to take shape in 1863 and the last amendments were added in 2005. For 142 years the so-called civilized nations of the Earth have argued the conduct acceptable in warfare. Those who violate those prescripts are to be judged war criminals but that dishonor is usually reserved for those of the losing side. So with all this effort on the part of the most serious minded mankind has put forth on this world the original question asked by this threads author remains. Is all fair game in war? No easy answer. It depends on the circumstances. Personally, to use a Star Wars reference, I would have used Alpha Red. Not a second thought. "It'll kill em all?". "Yes Sir". "Do it!" No problem. Whatever it takes to win quickly and restore order. Would I consider it an atrocity if it were used against me? Of course I would. Another great truism from Star Wars. Truth depends on your point of view. "I think a chicken, a coffee mug, or something that resembles coleslaw would best represent me... ... another sentence in a long list of things I never dreamed of hearing myself say." -Homage to a clever man. Last Edited By: revmacd 06/26/08 9:36 PM. Edited 1 time.
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Iurus		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2933 06/27/08 2:02 AM	Hmm......you're never one to shy away from the tough questions are you Iurus? Heh... you'll notice I still haven't composed an answer to any of these questions. Everyone who has ever fought a war has thought they held the moral high ground and therefor any actions they take to defeat their enemy can be justified as necessary. Except for the Americans in Nam. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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Anonymous170694		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 663 06/27/08 6:56 AM	Oh well, I'm sure they at least pretended to have the moral high ground. Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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Anonymous170694		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 663 06/27/08 6:56 AM	Oh well, I'm sure they at least pretended to have the moral high ground. Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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revmacd		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1708 06/27/08 8:48 AM	Heh... you'll notice I still haven't composed an answer to any of these questions. I know, I did notice that and don't think I'm blowin' smoke up your skirt but most people your age are wondering who will win American Idol while you ponder these heavy questions. Except for the Americans in Nam. I disagree. The official line was that we were stemming the tide of the global Communist menace. That we were preserving Democracy for the freedom loving people of South Viet Nam. Whether anyone thinks we actually were or not is another matter but it was the "moral high ground" which I mentioned. "I think a chicken, a coffee mug, or something that resembles coleslaw would best represent me... ... another sentence in a long list of things I never dreamed of hearing myself say." -Homage to a clever man.
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Anonymous170694		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 668 06/27/08 8:52 AM	So, Iurus, what is your opinion on your own questions? Would you agree with Mizz? Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" Last Edited By: Anonymous170694 06/27/08 8:56 AM. Edited 1 time.
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thebentwin		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 500 06/27/08 2:03 PM	genocide is wrong, commiting genocide is implying that everyone associated with that is wrong or bloodthirsty or weak or whatever. If you justify your genocide that way then your stereotyping and if you say they would kill all of us then your showing a sign of an inferior mind its an excuse not a reason. "Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love." Ghandi
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Iurus		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2937 06/27/08 7:43 PM	I disagree. The official line was that we were stemming the tide of the global Communist menace. That we were preserving Democracy for the freedom loving people of South Viet Nam. Whether anyone thinks we actually were or not is another matter but it was the "moral high ground" which I mentioned. Ah- I thought you were referring to the people actually fighting, some of whom did and some of them wondered why in God's name they were depriving these people of the right to choose their own government. So, Iurus, what is your opinion on your own questions? Would you agree with Mizz? Ah, here it comes. Let me see... in many ways, I follow Sith ideologies. I would sacrifice, for example, the one million civilians living in the capital city of an enemy nation by bomb if I thought that it would save two million American troops. I would also find it completely relevant whether or not the people supported the dictator we were fighting (in a war in which the dictator is truly the cause). For example, I would not massacre the Iraqi people, but I might do so to the hypothetical electors of a Taliban-like group- the friend of my enemy is my enemy. They have the right to rule themselves and all that, but not at the expense of another nation's well-being. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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Anonymous170694		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 674 06/28/08 12:01 AM	I wouldn't say that it makes a difference to me. I won't massacre civilians for electing a government that is at war with me, nor for being ruled by a dictator. I'd kill civilians if I had no choice, if I needed to do it. Ok, Iurus, regarding your hypothetical example, would you do it if the ratio was reversed? Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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Iurus		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2949 06/28/08 12:22 AM	I wouldn't kill them simply for electing them, but I would be far less hesitant to do so. It's the difference between going out of your way to not hurt someone who's done nothing to you, as compared to going out of your way (and risking your own lives) to not hurt someone who would gladly kill you. Would a kill a large amount of enemy civilians to save a small amount of my own troops? That would come down to whether or not the civilians in question supported my enemies, as compared to simply being ruled by them. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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Anonymous170694		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 679 06/28/08 5:45 AM	How would the electorate know that their elected leader planned to start a war? I'm sure the Germans in 1933 didn't know that Hitler would start WWII. Also, often fear and intimidation are used by a party to get elected. Would you consider the electorate guilty? Would you consider the representatives in the Reichstag guilty for not opposing Hitler's Enabling Act under the watchful eye of stormtroopers (pun intended)? Yet another question: would you consider the electorate guilty for electing representatives that voted for a dictator? Or what about electoral fraud? Which of these would you consider to be the fault of the electorate? By the way, my opinion regarding the question I posed would be yes. In a short-term war, I wouldn't use radiation or other long-term weapons, but that would be as much as I'd hold back in a full-scale war. Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so. And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
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Iurus		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2952 06/28/08 3:07 PM	Well, let's use the US for example. George Bush's approval ratings went down, and even his own party's candidate has been known to take shots at him from time to time. Therefore, the people in general do not support what he is doing. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
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