Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

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Kirr Mistwelder

Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

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Posts: 1586

01/03/07 11:46 AM

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So I'm here to change that. It's actually my second favorite film in the series (after Empire), yes -gasp- before A New Hope.

I've gotten riled up because I recently read yet another somewhat negative review of RotJ - and why? You can all guess. Say it with me.

Ewoks.

Come ON. The Ewoks are in what - about 1/4 of the total running time of the movie. Sure it's interspersed in the last 1/2 of the film - but between the Jabba sequence, return to Dagobah, the Rebel planning, the speeder bike chase, Luke's fight with Vader and the Emporer on the Death Star, and the final space battle - you mean to tell me that the Ewoks ruin the film for you? Wicket wasn't nearly as annoying as Jar Jar - nor were the Ewoks as bad as the Gungans.

And even without all those great scenes I've already mentioned in the movie - there are things I like about the Ewoks. I LIKE that the primitive race uses innovative ways to smash the high tech of the Empire. I like the humor brought into the movie by the Ewoks (C-3P0 and his god-hood, Chewie and his stomach, Han as dinner). Even their homes in the treetops were cool. Heck, I remember the Ewok movies being pretty cool in their own right.

I rank Return of the Jedi higher than ANY prequel movie - and that's a fact. So feel free to share your own love for the (apparent) red headed step child of the Star Wars series... and Celebrate the Light!

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GreenLightsaber24 on Acky: I'm like the Onimi to his Shimrra...only less intelligent and not the real power behind the throne!

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Rouge77

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#1

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01/03/07 3:39 PM

I have to admit that Ewoks are one of the main reasons why I do not rate ROTJ as high as ANH, ESB or ROTS. They are silly, childish things, perhaps good for selling stuff for kids, but they are in the wrong movie. But that is not the only thing.

The acting in ROTJ is of lower quality than in the other OT movies. I cannot explain it any better than saying that the acting is uninspired, and well... weak. Like the director would have often accepted the first shot of a scene as the final one. It just seems and feels bad most of the time.

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Kirr Mistwelder

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#2

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Posts: 1586

01/04/07 9:52 AM

While I think it could be argued that the acting in the entire Star Wars saga wouldn't win any awards - I do have to say that Hayden is far worse in his role as Anakin than any of the actors in the original trilogy. I don't think it's the actor's fault - but the material he was given. And lets not even get started on the complete lack of chemistry between Hayden and Portman. Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher they are not (though I though Portman and Ewan were two of the best actors in the prequels.

Anyway, I think Hayden put in his best performance in Revenge of the Sith - but the bad things in that movie outweighs anything in Return of the Jedi (at least to me). Revenge is the best of the prequels - but it's still below all the original trilogy movies for me.

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GreenLightsaber24 on Acky: I'm like the Onimi to his Shimrra...only less intelligent and not the real power behind the throne!

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Acky12

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#3

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Posts: 12493

01/04/07 1:18 PM

I’m responsible for all this...

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They are silly, childish things, perhaps good for selling stuff for kids, but they are in the wrong movie.

Don't forget that Star Wars isn't for adults... it's a kids movie.

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Rouge77

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#4

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Posts: 2583

01/04/07 1:34 PM

[quote]Don't forget that Star Wars isn't for adults... it's a kids movie.[/quote]

Is it? Perhaps it once was, but certainly the audience of the movies consists nowadays more of adults than kids. And the two Ewok movies show the difference between a normal SW movie and a SW movie for kids, or at least they show it to me.

ROTJ and TPM both suffer from the fact that they were mostly movies for adult audiences which had elements that were intended for kids, like the Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. I think that George Lucas has not understood that most kids do not need any characters like them to like SW and force their parents to buy SW stuff to make him richer. Most kids like Darth Vader!

My view towards the Ewoks have not changed through years. I saw them as teddy bears who were in a wrong movie and disliked them as when I saw them as a kid - and still watched the Ewok cartoons, because they were SW, like I watched the awful Clone Wars cartoon because it was SW - and I dislike them as an adult. If I could change one thing in the movies, it would be to replace the Ewoks with something more believable, fierce and far less silly.

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Acky12

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#5

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01/04/07 4:40 PM

I’m responsible for all this...

Star Wars was made for kids. The prequels were made - surprise surprise - for kids.

The problem, though, comes from the fact that the KIDS who watched the originals, were ADULTS when the prequels were made and thus expecting something made for them. But the movies aren't made for adults.

Hell, the only person the movies *are* made for are Lucas, but that's beside the point.

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cyris8400

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#6

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Posts: 2258

01/05/07 1:58 AM

"Kids movie" doesn't quite cut it for me, especially considering the various chopping off of arms and hands throughout the OT (the Mos Eisley bar ruffians, the Wampa, and Luke, in that order). Were they as bad as, for example, Sin City? No, but they weren't as wholesome as, say, Shrek, which I would consider to be an exemplar "kids" or "family" movie.

Outside the OT, the mood of RotS was pretty grim, and the whole thing with Anakin and the lava, but I know they held back in places that wouldn't have been hurt if they did (i.e.: it was originally planned that Sidious would decapitate one of the members of the Jedi squad that came to arrest him, but they instead settled for bloodless sternum slices).

TPM was the only bona fide kids movie. The rest were meant to attract a large variety of audiences but weren't "kids movies", so to speak.

RotJ was definitely the kiddiest movie of the OT, being riddled with not just Ewoks but also burp jokes and other excessive amounts of "muppet" aliens.

Still, it beats ANH hands down in my book. Lucas directed ANH and the OT and yet the only definitively good ones were ESB and RotJ. Coincidence? :shrug

___________________________________________________________________________________________

"It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it."
--Edmund Way Teale

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MrNomAnor

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#7

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Posts: 8209

01/05/07 2:10 AM

I heart Lumiya

What do I love about Return of the Jedi...??

I love Emperor Palpatine.

If you watch ROTJ without any knowledge of the Prequels (which is how us older peeps did it), what seems amazing about the Emperor is that for a seemingly frail old man, he can kick some serious ass. The majority of the film he either hobbles around on his cane or sits on his wrinkly butt in his chair. But get him pissed off enough and he will fry you with Force lightning, something not seen before he cracked it out. And watching him as a little kid, it's a case of "less is more;" he shouldn't make you afraid, but he does. That wrinkly, reptillian-ish face, coupled with the fact that his brand of evil is more seductive and insidious than others makes it all the more freaky. A great villain.

I love Jabba the Hutt. Seen (in real life) for the first time in this film, he looks splendid. And the Hutts, even though extremely disgusting, still remain one of the most unique non-humans in all sci-fi history.

I love the Ewoks. I don't care if they are basically living teddy bears. I just love the irony of a primitive, "backward" little people taking on the high-tech, sophisticated Empire and winning. Did anyone ever think that perhaps that's the point? Technology and ruling with an iron fist can't get you everything, like say, unity, passion and a desire to be free.

I love how everything comes full circle, which is only highlighted even more with the introduction of the Prequels.

I love the look of ecstacy on Han's face when he realises Leia loves Luke as a brother and not a rival for his affection.

I love how the first thing we see of Luke is him striding with definite purpose into Jabba's Palace and the first action we see him do is Force-choke those Gamorrean guards. And people say Luke isn't cool. :crazy

I love how a blind Han Solo is able to puncture Fett's backpack, and I love how in the ensuing fall into the Sarlacc's pit, he screams like a young girl. And people say Fett is cool. :rollin

I love how Leia pwzzns everything she touches in this movie. She rides a swoop-bike like nobody's business, outclassing even Luke; she strangles Jabba, and with all his flab, that's no mean feat; she quickly strikes a rapport with the adorable Wicket; how she flaunts her "assets" in that rather skimpy dancer's outfit (how many women would have the chutzpah to do that, especially with all that riff-raff leering away) and how she takes those family revelations in her stride. And people say the "ballsy" Leia of ANH is no more. :wtf

I love the look of revulsion on Leia's face when Luke tells her that Vader is his father. I love the sadness in her voice when she speaks of Padme. And I love the fulfilled smile she gives Han when she reveals to him her familial relationship to Luke.

I love how Han holds Leia, despite his confusion, with no questions asked when he finds her on the Ewok village bridge.

I love the music playing when Yoda finally passes into the Force, and the slow fall of the blanket covering him.

I love how the gang all plays a crucial part in the plan to rescue Han.

I love Artoo V Salacious Crumb.

I love Admiral Ackbar and his Mon Cal staff. "It's a twap!" indeed. What's more, I love Ackbar's triumphant, yet tired slump after the destruction of the Executor. Summing up all the losses, yet the ultimate victory and how it has hit Ackbar.

I love how, upon seeing their fallen Lord Vader with Luke, Moff Jerjerrod and his staff don't even pause to see what's going on. They're OUTTA THERE!

I love the fireworks, and the original Ewok music played in the original theatrical edition. And I love the added victory celebrations around the galaxy in the newer versions. I love whoever that person is who joyously screams "Freedom!"

I love Luke V Vader; from the eerie, yet awesomely inspired music, to the dialogue, to Luke hacking away viciously at Vader's hand; to his realisation that this is exactly what the Emperor WANTS; to his declaration: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." The audience too, realise this epihany, and we too are overjoyed at the Emperor's ensuing scowl. I love it even more how Luke then throws away his lighsaber.

I love Han's concern when Leia goes missing on Endor.

I love the banter in the Home One; Leia's like, "I wonder who they found to pull that off," and it's HAN! Brilliant.

I love the ghostly trio at the end. And I love how if you look directly behind Luke, Han is looking directly at the spirits.

I love Chewie and the Ewoks together.

I love Chewie hugging Han in Jabba's dungeon.

I love EV-9D9 and Artoo. "Ah, new acquisitions."

I love Artoo as drink caddy, and Threepio getting slapped down by an angry Jabba. And how he then has Hutt slime on him. Heh.

I love Return of the Jedi. So very under-appreciated.

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Acky12

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#8

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01/05/07 10:33 AM

I’m responsible for all this...

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What's more, I love Ackbar's triumphant, yet tired slump after the destruction of the Executor. Summing up all the losses, yet the ultimate victory and how it has hit Ackbar.

Perhaps the single most emotional moment in the saga that doesn't contain any dialogue - that one movement... the one slump... says so much in juxtaposition to everything else going on.

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Kirr Mistwelder

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#9

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Posts: 1586

01/06/07 1:55 PM

Thank you Nom - you just summed up all the reasons I love Return of the Jedi too.

I remember when I first got it on VHS - I had only seen it once in the theaters and this was probably 2 years later... I watched this film over and over.

And I'll add one more - without Return of the Jedi, we wouldn't have "Yub Nub, Commander" in the X-Wing books.

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GreenLightsaber24 on Acky: I'm like the Onimi to his Shimrra...only less intelligent and not the real power behind the throne!

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MrNomAnor

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#10

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Posts: 8209

01/08/07 8:41 PM

I heart Lumiya

It's true that ROTJ doesn't get as much love as it should; which is far too bad.

A more than satisfying closure to perhaps the most epic saga, giving everyone plenty to do; offering up many new faces and creations as well; and perhaps most importantly, it gives ample closure to the Skywalker family at this stage in their existence and the way everything is finished in full circle is much appreciated.

I also forgot to mention in my previous post:

*Nien Nunb - the first in a long line of memorable (and undeniably cute) Sullustan characters. A joy to look at and even better to hear their rapid-chatter native tongue.

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Kirr Mistwelder

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#11

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Posts: 1586

01/09/07 10:59 AM

I'm not a fan of the special editions. I recently got the limited edition DVDs for the original trilogy, so I could have the original versions I grew up with.

However, I did watch the even newer finale on the Return of the Jedi disc. Now I had seen the special editions in the theathers and HATED the new music and planets being shown. Still, I knew even more changes had been made for the recent release on DVD to even more closely link it to the prequels. And I have to say, I did like it.

The new finale music isn't as bad as I remember (I may have been somewhat more annoyed by the music after seeing it in the theaters because of the mockery that is "Jedi Rocks"). The planets make sense (I don't know if they're the same as they were - but now I recognize them). And there's actually more celebration footage. Not just new computer generated Ewok dancing scenes (which it has too) but actual ADDED footage of the actors celebrating. For instance, Luke hugs Wedge - I watched the two endings back to back, and that wasn't in the older version of the film. The entire ending is a little more prolonged, and I think that's actually a good thing.

And even the ghost of new Anakin didn't annoy me that much, because it did provide that link to the prequels (and I did notice Han looking at the ghosts - or over at Luke I suppose, Nom).

I still like the Ewok celebration song, and I think musically John Williams could have used his new theme for the new planet celebrations and then sequed back into the Ewok celebration theme as the scene came back to that part of the movie, but that's just me.

Anyway, I was just surprised by how much I actually enjoyed that new ending.

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GreenLightsaber24 on Acky: I'm like the Onimi to his Shimrra...only less intelligent and not the real power behind the throne!

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cyris8400

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#12

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Posts: 2258

01/10/07 8:07 PM

Well, I loved the space battle over Endor, which I don't think has ever been topped. The PT battles were just pretenders, and the RotS space battle was just ridiculous.

Also I loved everything about the Emperor.

And Tatooine.

But not the burp jokes and not Boba Fett's premature death. Even if you hate Fett, the mere fact that he's one of the galaxy's best bounty hunters (at least Vader thought so, in the hunters assembled on the Executor) makes it very unlikely that he'd be taken down by a blind Han.

Also I don't really have much of a problem with the Ewoks. Gungans wish they could be half as good as Ewoks. And Nom has a good point in the overall theme of a primitive people triumphing over high-tech villains, but, playing the Ewok-hater for a sec, the primitive people didn't really have to be teddy bears. After all, it was originally planned that Endor be the homeworld of the Wookiees.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

"It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it."
--Edmund Way Teale

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Kirr Mistwelder

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#13

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Posts: 1586

01/11/07 11:54 AM

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After all, it was originally planned that Endor be the homeworld of the Wookiees.

And I'd love to say "well, if Lucas had used the Wookies in RotJ then he wouldn't have in RotS" but considering how important that was to Revenge (i.e. NOT)... I do think that would probably have been a change for the better (Wookies instead).

Still, the Ewoks just don't bother me.

As for Fett. Now, I like the character - both because of his look (about the only thing you'd get out of the original trilogy) and his recent characterizations - but I also think it's actually GREAT that Han takes him out the way he does. It's random, it's an accident - and stuff like this happens in real life. He's the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy, but he wasn't paying any attention to Han because in his mind, blinded Han was a non-threat. It's actually one of the only ways in which I could see a bounty hunter of his caliber being "taken out".

More Return of the Jedi coolness... Leia's Bosch (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong - her bounty hunter) disguise. Just awesome. The laugh she and Han hear after he's come out of carbon freeze. Luke using his mind control on Bif Fortuna. Han and Luke's wit as they're brought to Jabba together ("How're we doing?" "Same as always." "That bad, huh?"). Luke's lightsaber popping out of R2's head, and his reverse fall/jump off the Skiff's plank above the Saarlac (not to mention the tension building music of this scene). And I haven't even gotten off of Tatooine yet.

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GreenLightsaber24 on Acky: I'm like the Onimi to his Shimrra...only less intelligent and not the real power behind the throne!

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Acky12

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#14

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01/11/07 1:26 PM

I’m responsible for all this...

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And I'd love to say "well, if Lucas had used the Wookies in RotJ then he wouldn't have in RotS" but considering how important that was to Revenge (i.e. NOT)... I do think that would probably have been a change for the better (Wookies instead).

And in 1980-81 if Lucas had had the foresight 25 years down the road, it would have made for a very poetic statement to see the Wookiees getting captured by the Empire and then revolting against and earning their freedom.

However... with as much as Wookiees are built up, I think there'd be a logic question of how the empire could keep them under wraps for so long [keep in mind this would be pre-EU before we know the Empire used them for slaves]

I awaken into this world fully programmed yet completely innocent, unaware of the hardships I'll endure or the great potential I will one day fulfil.

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MrNomAnor

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#15

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Posts: 8209

01/15/07 2:07 AM

I heart Lumiya

I also love how Han and Leia reverse their (rather awesome) declaration of love from ESB: After she gets shot in the arm, and Han covers when a bunch of stormies run up; he says, "I love you" and she semi-whispers, "I know."

I totally forgot that until I watched the film again the other day.

So. Fricken. Awesome.

I also love how it's Threepio who distracts that big-ass legion of troops, "Over here!" and then he waddles off behind a tree. So. Cool.

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cyris8400

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#16

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Posts: 2258

01/15/07 6:42 AM

Yeah, I agree with you, Kirr, that Fett's "death" might be to hark on accidents that proliferate in the real world. It seems inconsistent with all the other narrow escapes the heroes get through, and that this one character's death would fill the need for portraying accidents.

Sometimes I can see right through to Lucas' motives (as I'm sure the rest of you can too) that he needed Fett to die but didn't want to drag out something like Obi-Wan vs. Jango. If Fett had lived he would have hunted down the protagonists within the movie's time. Considering this is pre-EU, movie-goers had seen a very skilled and resourceful bounty hunter, shrouded in mystery and apparently sometimes content with playing thug duty for Jabba. As we know him since his EU development, Fett probably would have left Luke and them alone if he survived the Sarlacc battle and they'd killed Jabba, since there was no monetary incentive. But movie-goers in 1983 wouldn't have known that, although they would have an inkling of his motivations. It would have been expected of a surviving Fett to destroy them before they could leave Tatooine or possibly even follow them to the Sullust rendezvous. Fett's death gave unexpected (and, for most, unwelcome) resolution to the character, but it had to be done so Lucas could fit everything else in there.

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I also love how Han and Leia reverse their (rather awesome) declaration of love from ESB: After she gets shot in the arm, and Han covers when a bunch of stormies run up; he says, "I love you" and she semi-whispers, "I know."

And you won't find anything remotely like that in the PT. Remember too that Mr. Ford made that line up on the spot after reading some crappier line in the script.

Anakin to Padme in AotC: "I wish I could just.... ah.... umm... wish away my feelings for you. Dammit! Where's a thesaurus?"

___________________________________________________________________________________________

"It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it."
--Edmund Way Teale

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MrNomAnor

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#17

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01/17/07 2:08 AM

I heart Lumiya

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Remember too that Mr. Ford made that line up on the spot after reading some crappier line in the script.

And that's why he'll always get major props from me.

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Iron Fist

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#18

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Posts: 1701

01/17/07 10:19 PM

ESB is definitely my favorite of all time. But RotJ and ANH are tied for 2nd. I love ANH because it is just great, I love everything about it. Same with RotJ. Sure there are ewoks but so what? Ewoks actually make sense. Primitive beings. Everything about them fits, from there "food" to religion. Look at the Gungans? They build these amazing underwater force fields but thats it?

The RotJ space battles are great too. Tons of ships and general chaoticness. As opposed to Ep III where both Anakin and Obi-wan can fly STRAIGHT without being shot at...Either way. I have to agree. RotJ does deserve more love.

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Central Scrutinizer

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#19

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Posts: 378

01/21/07 8:04 PM

I loved the Battle of Endor, in the movie the battle had a real sense of danger and suspense, unlike in Ep. III where the space battle was really only background filler. No other battle in the other movies can beat it's sheer awesomeness, for lack of a better word.

A real hologram...okay not real, but almost a real hologram.

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Narmachuk

Re: Return of the Jedi doesn't get enough love

#20

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Posts: 10

03/08/07 8:02 AM

I like the ROTJ for....

The interaction between Luke and Vader.
Jabba the F'ing Hutt scenes
Darth Sidious and all of his wickedness

I hated the Ewoks womping the stormtrooper's booty. Seing them in Episone II and III, it's hard to even believe that some teddy bears with some vines and rocks could do that to them. The 501st would easily kill the Ewoks. Do I even need to say that!?

Side note: Being beaten to death by an angry Ewok, is there any worse fate? lol
I want to see a jedi Ewok! Tarfang rules!

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