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Uliah |
#21 | |||
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A retcon? In Star Wars? What a shock.
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kevinmhk |
#22 | |||
MrNomAnor wrote: Not a perfect argument, Nom, Marka Ragnos and Ajunta Pall, both Dark Lords of the Sith, appeared as blue Force ghost.
Kevin's favorites as of 11 July 08:
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Rouge77 |
#23 | |||
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As far as I remember, Vergere wasn't blue in DW, but looked totally like she would have been alive, except that her breathing didn't cause vapour to
appear - as it should have in the coldness of the tunnels - which made Jacen realize that she was dead. This is the scene as far as I remember it.
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Fettster |
#24 | |||
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I haven't reread DW since it came out, but that jives with what I remember.
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Uliah |
#25 | |||
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Yes, Jacen didn't realize she was dead at first. He asked her if she was.
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MrNomAnor |
#26 | |||
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The point remains that 99% of Sith spirits are anchored to some person or thing and while Vergere COULD have been anchored to Jacen, I would imagine she would
have shown up after Ebaq. If she was anchored to Ebaq.... then that is silly.
Vergere MAY fall into the 1% of Sith spirits that can do whatever they please, but then I would still imagine if this were the case, she'd show up after Ebaq. I remain unamused by this constant continuity-hole widening even that is "Vergere is a Sith." |
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Chris |
#27 | |||
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She did show up after Ebaq. Jacen saw her before they set off for Zonoma Sekot in Force Heretic: Remnant.
I don't mind retcons normally (you get used to them reading comics) but this one goes completely against her portrayal in NJO, undermines the ending of that series AND serves no real purpose in this series, just served as an excuse for lazy writing (what they couldn't come up with a better reason for Jacen to fall than a teacher he had for a roughly a year about a decade ago, after which he emerged a greater Jedi than ever before?) |
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BobaKareu |
#28 | |||
Chris wrote: I think you're confusing one of Sekot's forms with her Force Ghost. Her last appearance (and only as a Force Ghost) was in Destiny's Way.
The Complete Star Wars EU Journey:
http://www.bobakareu.blogspot.com/ |
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kevinmhk |
#29 | |||
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The whole "no dark side" teaching of Vergere is already wrong according to G-canon, there is a dark side of the Force.
Her teaching is pretty much already retconed by Luke Skywalker during the Dark Nest trilogy, and Potentium (sp?) is labeled as "corrupted". I believe it's something like she who believes there is no dark side is the follower of the dark side herself. Just like a drunk said he's not drunk and a mad man claim he is sane. (I know, these may not be the best examples in the world) Kevin's favorites as of 11 July 08:
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Uliah |
#30 | |||
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Luke explained to Jacen the fallacy of Vergere's teachng in DW. That being part of the NJO makes it not a
retcon at all. While I think the whole "Vergere is a Sith" thing is a retcon, she was clearly a follower of the Potentium. IMO, the Potentium is not
a healthy belief, and as Kevin pointed out it is not G-canon, which pretty much trumps any other canon.
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x wingurly |
#31 | |||
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Lucas canned the idea of "no dark side of the force" because he didn't like it (after it was written??) and while that does make what he said
valid above all, it still was a great waste of potential story IMO.
And someone correct me if I am wrong but I remember reading that Luke agreed with vergere that there was no "light or dark side" but the dark was in them and they made the choice to use the force for evil. Granted I have not read the latter half of NJO in awhile but I don't remember him actually stating in NJO that it was a fallacy. DN states that luke finds this teaching wrong but I thought at the end of NJO, luke was on board with this idea. Maybe not personally accept it but allow Jacen to keep doing what he was doing. |
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kevinmhk |
#32 | |||
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I no longer remember specific dialogs, but basically the situation is, the Jedi during The Joiner King would Force choke and Force lightning against their
enemies (even Mara did that). But Luke, as you mentioned, said something about "The Force may have no light or dark side, but we do, we must choose."
and stop using all dark side power.
And after that Luke's Jedi Order basically, for all intent and purposes, revert back to the traditional Jedi Order's view regarding the sides of the Force and the conduct of its practical use. And now all those who are Vergere's students or influenced by her are dark sider and Sith, including Caedus, Lumiya, and Krayt. Kevin's favorites as of 11 July 08:
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Uliah |
#33 | |||
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I'm going to quote this one more time.
From the Unifying Force, page 265, Luke speaking to Jacen: "It's true that the Force is unified; it is one energy, one power. But here's where I think you and Vergere are incorrect: the dark side is real, because evil actions are real. Sentience gave rise to the dark side. Does it exist in nature? No. Left to itself, nature maintains the balance. But we've changed that. We are a new order of consciousness that has an impact on all life. The Force now contains light and dark because of what thinking beings have brought to it. That's why balance has become something that must be maintained -- because our actions have the power to tip the scales." And Jacen replies: "As the Sith did." I am not going to quote Luke's new philosophy. If anyone wants to refer back to it, it starts on page 505 of TUF. While Luke clearly incorporates something of what Vergere showed him, it's by no means an endorsement of the Potentium. In fact it's the opposite. Luke sticks by the Light/Dark sides of the Force. IMO this was not something thrown in at the last minute to counteract Vergere's belief. |
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kevinmhk |
#34 | |||
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Very nice quote, Uliah, thank you.
So we probably have come to this: A: Vergere believed in the dark side and was truly a Sith. "And I, in you (Sensing the dark side in Vergere)." --Hett to Vergere, Claws of the Dragon Part 5 "Accept your pain, allow it to feed your dark anger - learn to invite its grip." --Vergere to Hett, Claws of the Dragon Part 5 "Vergere taught me to use the agony of the Embrace of Pain to open myself to the dark side." --Krayt to Cade, Claws of the Dragon Part 5 He encountered Jacen Solo, fulfilling her need to find a suitable disciple, and come up with the idea that the best way to corrupt a person to the dark side is to tell him there is no dark side in the first place, granting him allowance to do whatever he wants without worrying about light or dark. Or, B: Vergere was lying to Hett and Lumiya the whole time, she truly believed in the Potentium (the Force having no sides) and taught that to Jacen... just that what she believed in was wrong and corrupted already. Kevin's favorites as of 11 July 08:
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Uliah |
#35 | |||
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I personally like B better altho A is the "official" story. IMO it goes without saying that she was corrupt whatever she truly was. She certainly
could have helped Jacen escape Myrkr instead of seeing that he was captured. She was more than wiley enough to do that. She served her own ends whatever they
were.
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AladelAngel |
#36 | |||
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The Potentium was certainly heretical, in the same way that the gnostic gospels or even neo-platonism are to orthodox Christian thought. The part that I
don't like is DR's post-NJO interpertation of it, where it was all a Sith trap designed by Lumiya and Vergere to snare Jacen Solo. It just doesn't
fit with the facts of the latter half of the NJO.
This isn't about good or evil, this is about the fundamental nature of the Force itself. Jedi are not moralists. That's a common misperception. We are fundamentally pragmatic. The Jedi is altruistic less because to be so is good, than because to be so is safe: to use the Force for personal ends is dangerous. That is a trap that can snare even the most good, kind, caring Jedi: it leads to what we call the dark side. Power to do good eventually becomes just power. Naked force. An end unto itself. It is a form of madness to which Jedi are peculiarly susceptible.
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x wingurly |
#37 | |||
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I am in complete agreement with you Aladel. Stover nailed it and the sudden change is what I grapple with because it was such an interesting concept.
Regardless, i know it won't change anything so i will move on from it.
Thanks Uliah for the quote I really do intend to go back and read NJO.
I think that just proved thoguh that although Luke did not agree with it, he still left jacen to his own devices. I also think that is where luke retrace his
steps in his search as to why jacen fell??
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Rouge77 |
#38 | |||
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I have to doubt it; it would make Luke look pretty bad. He had about 12 years (minus the five Jacen wandered around the galaxy) to do something about Jacen, to
lead him back on the right track. And he didn't do anything at all. So I can't believe they would make Luke go so far back and find out that he did a
terrible mistake there. I don't really believe that they will put any blame whatsoever on Luke at all, though. It's almost as unlikely as killing him.
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x wingurly |
#39 | |||
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i would have agreed that they wouldn't do that once upon a time but it now seems DR is open to anything regardless (minus the killing luke part). Luke will
no doubt at least reflect on his mistakes and then maybe direct his thoughts to vergere. The only reason i say that is because luke has a history of looking
inward at what believes to be his own failures instead of others. Not that it is right but just what luke does.
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Chris |
#40 | |||
BobaKareu wrote: Nope, she appeared to Jacen in Remnant, WAY before they found Sekot (who's projection Vergere was said to look younger). Stover did nail it in both Traitor and Shatterpoint (Stover himself said, in the official site interview I think, that he thought his understandings of the dark side were part of the reason he got the ROTS job). I find what AladelAngel said very interesting comparing it to religion. The Potentium view of the Force is different to the Jedi's, but that doesn't make it false, just simply a different belief. Taking the religious comparison a step further, say the Jedi are Orthodox Christians and the Potentium view is Gnostic Gospels (to borrow Aladel's examples), what LOTF has essentially done is retcon Vergere from Gnostic Gospels to a devil worshipper and say that if you follow a path other than the orthodox path you will end up a devil worshiper as well. Why couldn't Jacen just have his own interesting and unique views? Why did one have to be wrong and the other right? If they had to make Jacen go off the rails why did he have to become another generic Sith (in fact worse than generic, he never really became that big a threat and lost most battles he with the Jedi). He could have been used to show that the dark can achieve good things, to make us question more where the line was between good and evil. Instead he got a Sith name and went mad instead. From Kevin's post I would go with option B any day over option A, and to add to that, at the time issue 18 was release Jan did post on the DH boards that the scene was as Krayt remembered it so it may not have been what she truely said, just what he (as a Sith recalling a Sith teacher) remembered her saying. And yes Uliah she could have saved Jacen at Myrkr, but if he hadn't gone through the events of Traitor could he have brought about the end of the war in the way he did? As for quotes I prefer Luke's end speech to the Jedi; "If I have learnt anything from the events of the past five years, it is that the Force is more all-embracing than I ever realized. Light and dark do not always stand opposed, but mingle with each other in curious ways. More important, the Force seems to have a will, and it's when we're acting against the will of the Force that we get into trouble. Anger by itself is not of the dark side unless it is accompanied by a desire to dominate. When we act in harmony with the will of the Force, we disappear into it. When we struggle against it, we not only sever our ties with the Force, but also feed the needs of chaos. The evolution of sentience reflects the constant between those two poles. Evil - the dark side - won't be eradicated until it has been discarded as an option for aquiring power, subjugating would-be opponents, or offsetting feelings of anger, envy, or exclusion. Where victims of injustice exist, the dark side finds initiates. That is the cycle our actions are meant to forstall, and in this battle the Force is both our ally and our guardian. We serve it best by listening to its will, and serving the good with our every action - by personifying the Force" To me that (and the rest of his speech) just sums up what it should mean to be a Jedi in the NJO. In terms of light and dark, Jacen's battle with Onimi states that he broke through the apparent opposites of the Force to a more all-embracing reality. So maybe on the level the Jedi work there is light and dark as Luke said in the earlier quote, but in the grander scale - The Unifying Force - it is just one whole. |
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