He didn't want to kill Isolder.He may not have wanted to but the fact that he did shows 1) His black and white thinking and 2) his lack of moral value.
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Iron Fist |
#1501 | |||
He didn't want to kill Isolder.He may not have wanted to but the fact that he did shows 1) His black and white thinking and 2) his lack of moral value. You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Uliah |
#1502 | |||
Thats also why I like the idea of a Sith that is working for the good of the galaxy.Just because the Sith believe they are working for good doesn't mean that they aren't evil. The Sith never do deliver peace because the means they use are subjugation & loss of freedom. Even Caedus did that & that will inevitably result in rebellion and war. Beings will always want self-determination & it is their right. |
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Anonymous170694 |
#1503 | |||
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True, but what did Caedus do to cause people to lose their freedom? Besides wartime emergency measures?
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Iron Fist |
#1504 | |||
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I would argue that the whole idea of GAG and many of his policies against the Confederation resulted in a loss of freedom. In fact, Caedus took away the
freedom of choice when he bombed Kashyyyk for their indecision. In fact, Caedus' bombing of Kashyyyk shows his disregard for other's freedom.
You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Fettster |
#1505 | |||
Anonymous170694 wrote: Again, just pointing out: "Wartime emergency measures" are exactly how Palpatine got things going.
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Anonymous170694 |
#1506 | |||
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Caedus didn't intend to keep them, unlike Sidious.
But Caedus bombed Kashyyyk for betraying and lying about it to the GA.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Iron Fist |
#1507 | |||
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But Kashyyyk hadn't "betrayed" him, at least not yet. They may have lied about having Jedi but Caedus didn't even look at things from their
POV. If he had, he would have understood their reluctance to turn the Jedi over and negotiated with them to reach a conclusion. And I still don't think you
answered my analogy above, that bombing Kashyyyk was not respecting the people.
As you're fond of pointing out, it was the government who acted in this case, not the people. And Caedus attacked the people when he bombed their citizens. You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Anonymous170694 |
#1508 | |||
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True, but when the government commits an act of treason, the government is supposed to represent the people.
Yes, Caedus knew that Kashyyyk would be unwilling to hand over the Jedi, but by refusing to admit that Jedi were on Kashyyyk, the Wookiies ruled out any possiblities of a negotiation. "Ok, we'll hand over the Jedi who aren't here in exchange for..."
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Iron Fist |
#1509 | |||
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How is that a refusal to negotiate? Why didn't he just negotiate on the main issue, that of Kashyyyk's fleet. And are you then saying that it is
acceptable for a entity to bomb another planet's population for the government's actions?
You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Anonymous170694 |
#1510 | |||
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Yes. Thats what the British did in WWII. Thats what the Americans did then too.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Uliah |
#1511 | |||
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Germany had declared war on England & the United States. Kashyyk did not declare war on the GA.
If you're going to debate, at least use a valid analogy. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor would have been more appropriate. |
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Iron Fist |
#1512 | |||
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I hate to mix threads but I think this is an important point so you'll have to forgive me for that.
Anon, you've been telling us the whole time in the Science v. God thread that the people of a country should not be blamed for the acts of their governments yet here you are saying that you accept Caedus' bombing of the Kashyyyk population. How do you reconcile these views? I was so sure I had caught you in a logic trap of your own making, lol. I guess not.
Also, I'd still ask if you have a response to the argument I made earlier: In fact, Caedus took away the freedom of choice [of the Wookies] when he bombed Kashyyyk for their indecision. In fact, Caedus' bombing of Kashyyyk shows his disregard for other's freedom. You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Fettster |
#1513 | |||
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I was going to bring up the WW2 parallel if no one else did.
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Anonymous170694 |
#1514 | |||
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"Germany had declared war on England & the United States. Kashyyk did not declare war on the GA.
If you're going to debate, at least use a valid analogy. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor would have been more appropriate." Very well. It is slightly out, because Kashyyyk cannot declare war on the GA. Kashyyyk is a member of the GA, which has betrayed the GA. I'd say its effectively a declaration of war. But my analogy was based on Iron's question: "And are you then saying that it is acceptable for a entity to bomb another planet's population for the government's actions?" Regardless whether its treason or war, it is still the governments actions. "Anon, you've been telling us the whole time in the Science v. God thread that the people of a country should not be blamed for the acts of their governments yet here you are saying that you accept Caedus' bombing of the Kashyyyk population. How do you reconcile these views?" It is true that I don't feel that the people should be blamed, i.e there should be no punitive measures imposed on the people after a war. But killing them during war, even though they can't be blamed, may be necessary, and is permissible. In a war, the enemy should really not be forced to take the welfare of civilians on the other side into account when they launch an attack. "In fact, Caedus took away the freedom of choice [of the Wookies] when he bombed Kashyyyk for their indecision. In fact, Caedus' bombing of Kashyyyk shows his disregard for other's freedom." The major question is whether secession should or should not be allowed. If Cal Omas' view that secession is illegal is upheld, then the Wookiees had no choice about leaving the GA. But even if secession is allowed, they can't stay in the GA without following its rules, and since it hadn't left the GA, and wasn't following its rules, then it was acting illegally. And if it was acting illegally, then Caedus had every right to do what he did.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium"
Last Edited By: Anonymous170694 06/30/08 3:23 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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Zinnos |
No | #1515 | ||
True, but when the government commits an act of treason, the government is supposed to represent the people.If a government is supposed to represent the people, then how do you believe that the Sith (Or Caedus), is right. Caedus ruled like an Emperor, despite his title. He had supreme control over his forces and he surely didn't take advice and criticism from those he is supposed to serve. Daala Count- 20 and counting ****************************************************** Then the forlorn look left her face, replaced by a slight smile. "After all, everything I tell you is a lie." Jacen cleared his throat. "That is an interesting turn of phrase." *********************************************** "You'll send a skiff?" Caedus fumed. "Tenel Ka, you can't believe I'm going to surrender- to you or anyone else." "I am hoping you will," Tenel Ka's voice was sad but firm. "because it is going to break my heart to open fire on you." ************************************************* Hapans Rule All. *************
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Anonymous170694 |
#1516 | |||
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Not much is stated of his political actions after Sacrifice. And I'm willing to say that Caedus overstepped the boundaries of democracy, but I doubt he
really took many actions politically besides providing his troops with better weapons. He did not have supreme control over his forces until Niathal betrayed
him, and we don't see any civilians giving him "advice and criticism". You're assuming a lot.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Zinnos |
Caedus | #1517 | ||
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So when Caedus bombs an innocent planet and ignores a peace treaty between the GA and Fondor, and murders an innocent aide, I am to assume that it was all
under the wants and needs of the people...I think not.
Daala Count- 20 and counting ****************************************************** Then the forlorn look left her face, replaced by a slight smile. "After all, everything I tell you is a lie." Jacen cleared his throat. "That is an interesting turn of phrase." *********************************************** "You'll send a skiff?" Caedus fumed. "Tenel Ka, you can't believe I'm going to surrender- to you or anyone else." "I am hoping you will," Tenel Ka's voice was sad but firm. "because it is going to break my heart to open fire on you." ************************************************* Hapans Rule All. *************
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Anonymous170694 |
#1518 | |||
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First, Kashyyyk is not innocent. Secondly, the peace treaty was done behind his back, when he should have been involved in it. Also, the person who agreed to
the peace treaty had been backstabbing him for the entire previous book, killing GA men in the process. Tebut was definitely one of Caedus' worst actions,
and I'd agree that killing her was evil. But like I said, one can understand how upset he is. He's like Luke in Sacrifice, wounded tremendously, and
furious.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Zinnos |
Jacen | #1519 | ||
First, Kashyyyk is not innocent.I believe it is, and even if it wasn't, it did not deserve what Jacen did. Secondly, the peace treaty was done behind his back, when he should have been involved in it. Also, the person who agreed to the peace treaty had been backstabbing him for the entire previous book, killing GA men in the process.Well, there are two Chiefs of State, and Caedus has to get used to sharing his power. And it isn't like he hasn't included Cha Niathal on plans, and Niathal was actually doing the Galaxy a favor for refusing to save Caedus and his lackies at Kashyyyk. Tebut was definitely one of Caedus' worst actions, and I'd agree that killing her was evil. But like I said, one can understand how upset he is. He's like Luke in Sacrifice, wounded tremendously, and furious.First off, it is not the same. Luke lost his wife and went after a criminal, which I know isn't right, but at least a little justified. However, Caedus's illegal kidnapping of his daughter didn't last and that is why he is angry, and that does not give him any justification of murdering Tebut. Daala Count- 20 and counting ****************************************************** Then the forlorn look left her face, replaced by a slight smile. "After all, everything I tell you is a lie." Jacen cleared his throat. "That is an interesting turn of phrase." *********************************************** "You'll send a skiff?" Caedus fumed. "Tenel Ka, you can't believe I'm going to surrender- to you or anyone else." "I am hoping you will," Tenel Ka's voice was sad but firm. "because it is going to break my heart to open fire on you." ************************************************* Hapans Rule All. *************
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Anonymous170694 |
#1520 | |||
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I was referring to Fondor, actually. Jacen took Kashyyyk very well. Will post more a little later.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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