I actually didn't follow Caedus' logic there. He was going to release Isolder but Isolder refused, thinking it was a trap. So why didn't Caedus
just throw him back in a cell. I"m sure he could have ordered GAG guards to not let any Imperials through...
Tenel Ka and Related Topics
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 Iron Fist |
#1481 | |||
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 Posts: 1482 06/28/08 9:04 PM |
You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Iurus |
#1482 | |||
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 Posts: 2960 06/28/08 9:09 PM |
It seems he didn't even think of using the GAG against the Imperials.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. |
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revmacd |
#1483 | |||
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 Posts: 1727 06/28/08 9:30 PM |
Considering the chaos at the time I think it's likely he needed Isolder off the ship and away from the Moffs altogether rather than risk any contact
between them.
"I think a chicken, a coffee mug, or something that resembles coleslaw would
best represent me...
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Iron Fist |
#1484 | |||
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Posts: 1483 06/28/08 10:11 PM |
I definitely see that as an option but why not just throw Isolder onto the ship and let them be. They would, at the very least, be isolated in their own ship
and, at best, gone after leaving in their ship. I don't see why Isolder had to be killed...
You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Anonymous170694 |
#1485 | |||
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Posts: 689 06/28/08 11:21 PM |
"No no no. Jacen bombed Kashyyyk because he wanted revenge on the Jedi- not to save Coruscant. Everybody knows this and you are fooling yourself if you
think otherwise."
Seriously, can you reread Inferno? Jacen explains his rationale very clearly to Ben and Twizzl. Its obvious he isn't looking for revenge, or if he is, to quote Jaina: "Revenge comes later." "Jacen killed Nelani because he thought Luke would die if she didn't, and that is not justified. One life is not higher than another's." Lukes death would clearly lead to many problems for the galaxy. Its the same rationale that the Jedi have: to kill someone to save more lives. "Jacen didn't need to kill Thann Mithric, he could have easily taken him out of the fight with his powers but did not need to kill him." Seriously? With three Jedi attacking him, should he really have taken the trouble to incapacitate the Jedi? Thann had not surrendered, he was still fighting, still a threat. "Jacen was twisting Ben's mind and taking over the Galaxy ILLEGALLY, and therefore Mara had every right to stop him." Whether Mara has any right to try and stop him is debatable, because Ben was not being brainwashed, merely thought, and Jacen wasn't taking over the galaxy illegally. BUT lets just say that Mara has the right to try and stop Jacen. Well then, Jacen has every right to defend himself, and to kill her. "Nelani did not have to die. Nor did Mara. Mara went after Jacen because he was a monster. Jacen was the one who should've died that day, definitely not Mara." Let me get this straight: Jacen should have just laid down and let Mara killed him? "And it is not even true. Jacen justified it in his head that way, and we all now how twisted he is. Jacen bombed Kashyyyk to get at the Jedi that tricked him at Kuat." Where does it ever say so? Even Ben doesn't believe it happened that way. "I agree. Burning Kashyyyk wasn't just a sick military move on his part, but also a move of revenge on his part. He's just insane." Alright, Kashyyyk was a mistake because of two things: one, Niathals betrayal, and two, Tenel Ka's betrayal. Jacen failed to calculate the extent to which his actions would affect Tenel Ka, and lost a valuable ally. But otherwise, it was a brilliant military move, one that should have paid off, although it does seem like a maneuvre for the side with disadvantage to me. "I agree. If you've noticed, I have yet to say Jacen in my posts. In my mind, there truly is difference between the two." Notice I haven't used Caedus in my posts either. "I think Sacrifice stressed that he took over quite legally. He used already existing Alliance legislation to legally create more legislation which allowed him to legally become Chief of State. Or co-Chief of State, but that is semantics. By the point Mara had gone after Jacen, Ben had rejected him and his teachings. He consciously did not want to follow Jacen anymore. And he distanced himelf from Jacen. Mara got all pissy that Jacen had been trying to make Ben his apprentice, which in itself is justified from Mara's POV being Ben's mother, but then she takes it upon herself to go at Jacen like a beserker and kill him. Jacen, despite whatever cruel/evil/bad/villainous things he may have done and may be doing, was content to let Ben AND Mara be. She came at him and was trying to kill him. Are you suggesting Jacen should've just laid down and died? I don't think so." QFT. In fact, it wasn't him "becoming" co-Chief of State, it was him being appointed co-Chief of State. "How do people say that Caedus killed Isolder "because he could", when we see his point of view that he was looking for any other option." QFT again. "I definitely see that as an option but why not just throw Isolder onto the ship and let them be. They would, at the very least, be isolated in their own ship and, at best, gone after leaving in their ship. I don't see why Isolder had to be killed..." The Imperials actually sneaked into the Anakin Solo to inject Isolder! Jacen knew how capable they were of doing something like that.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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JediVergere7 |
#1486 | |||
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 Posts: 46 06/29/08 1:15 AM |
Notice I haven't used Caedus in my posts either.
I'm confussed? So do you see Jacen and Caedus as two separate people or do you just see Jacen as Jacen? |
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Anonymous170694 |
#1487 | |||
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Posts: 693 06/29/08 1:53 AM |
I consider Jacen as Jacen. Caedus is a name he takes on later, but to me, he's still Jacen in every sense.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Uliah |
#1488 | |||
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 Posts: 3800 06/29/08 9:17 AM |
I consider Jacen as Jacen. Caedus is a name he takes on later, but to me, he's still Jacen in every sense.No kidding? I kinda actually picked up on that, you know. 
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Anonymous170694 |
#1489 | |||
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Posts: 695 06/29/08 10:08 AM |
Well, I went to great pains to keep "Jacen" consistently, but congrats on the spot anyway...
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Iron Fist |
#1490 | |||
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Posts: 1485 06/29/08 11:03 AM |
Seriously, can you reread Inferno? Jacen explains his rationale very clearly to Ben and Twizzl. Its obvious he isn't looking for revenge, or if he is, to quote Jaina: "Revenge comes later."Just because Caedus explains something publicly doesn't mean that is his true motivation. How would this sound if he said it to the entire crew of the AS: "Attention. I have decided that I will now burn Kashyyyk to the ground because they're really pissing me off. Thank you." Lukes death would clearly lead to many problems for the galaxy. Its the same rationale that the Jedi have: to kill someone to save more lives.Again, Caedus should not have killed someone on a vision that may or may not happen. And remember that Lumiya may have had something to do with what Caedus saw. If Luke could do it in Invincible, Lumiya certainly could have in Betrayal. Seriously? With three Jedi attacking him, should he really have taken the trouble to incapacitate the Jedi? Thann had not surrendered, he was still fighting, still a threat. Well then, Jacen has every right to defend himself, and to kill her. Let me get this straight: Jacen should have just laid down and let Mara killed him?I completely agree with you. I have no problem with Caedus defending himself in these situations. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved for him to lose (although that might have ended the story a little early  )
but it worked for me.
QFT. In fact, it wasn't him "becoming" co-Chief of State, it was him being appointed co-Chief of State.No idea what QFT means but he was not appointed. He removed Omas from office and then he and Niathal took that position upon themselves essentially. Yes, G'sil may have approved of it but the event was a result of their actions, not others. A couple of things here. 1) The Imperials were already there so they didn't need to "sneak" aboard. 2) At the time, Caedus didn't know that the Imperials could or would do something like that. From our POV (having already read the book), you may not see it that way but we have to look at Caedus' mindset at the time. Okay, I'm done now. 
You know, its kind of sad that if I were to mention the discussions that go on here to somebody in the real world, they would call me crazy as well as
obsessive and a complete geek/nerd/whatever. Then I come here and discover that I'm way out of my league. Especially when people recall details that I
don't even remember....
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Fettster |
#1491 | |||
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 Posts: 770 06/29/08 11:21 AM |
OFT= Quoted For Truth
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Anonymous170694 |
#1492 | |||
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Posts: 697 06/29/08 11:29 AM |
"Just because Caedus explains something publicly doesn't mean that is his true motivation. How would this sound if he said it to the entire crew of
the AS: "Attention. I have decided that I will now burn Kashyyyk to the ground because they're really pissing me off. Thank you.""
No, he explained it to Ben, and he had no reason to lie- he was trying to provoke anger. "Again, Caedus should not have killed someone on a vision that may or may not happen. And remember that Lumiya may have had something to do with what Caedus saw. If Luke could do it in Invincible, Lumiya certainly could have in Betrayal." It could have been, but Jacen didn't sense any deceit in Lumiya. And Lumiya didn't sense any deceit in herself either, so obviously she's hiding it really well. "No idea what QFT means but he was not appointed. He removed Omas from office and then he and Niathal took that position upon themselves essentially. Yes, G'sil may have approved of it but the event was a result of their actions, not others." Reread Sacrifice. He removes Omas, then Niathal takes power and appoints him as JCOS. "A couple of things here. 1) The Imperials were already there so they didn't need to "sneak" aboard. 2) At the time, Caedus didn't know that the Imperials could or would do something like that. From our POV (having already read the book), you may not see it that way but we have to look at Caedus' mindset at the time. Okay, I'm done now." Good point about the Imperials already being on the Anakin Solo, but Jacen knew very well that the Moffs would try something like that, or he wouldn't have been so desperate to get Isolder out.
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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JediVergere7 |
#1493 | |||
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Posts: 47 06/29/08 11:32 AM |
I consider Jacen as Jacen. Caedus is a name he takes on later, but to me, he's still Jacen in every sense.
I agree. For me he is still Jacen even when he takes on the name of Darth Caedus. I brought this up in another thread. I have a hard time separating the old character from the new character once they become Sith. I always just see Anakin as Anakin even when he is Darth Vader. |
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Fettster |
#1494 | |||
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Posts: 772 06/29/08 11:32 AM |
I think it's worth pointing out that the idea came from Jacen--and the laws necessary for it to be seen as legal also came from Jacen, via his conversations with that lawyer droid of his.
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Anonymous170694 |
#1495 | |||
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Posts: 698 06/29/08 11:35 AM |
Omas comes up with the idea of betraying Jacen. Jacen responds in turn. Yes, he and Niathal have an agreement, but it isn't anything illegal- the idea for
the law may have been Jacen's, but the law had been passed by the Senate
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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Fettster |
#1496 | |||
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Posts: 773 06/29/08 11:39 AM |
Hey, I'm not taking sides here, just pointing that out.
When the world needs him, the warrior Fet'antilles will rise again from the grave.
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Zinnos |
Jacen | #1497 | ||
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Posts: 10181 06/29/08 11:54 AM
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I read it twice and both times I read it fine. I know I read it fine because I didn't think that Jacen was justified in any way. He is a murderer. Lukes death would clearly lead to many problems for the galaxy. Its the same rationale that the Jedi have: to kill someone to save more lives.Luke's death was not determined and was not set in stone, so this point is not valid in any way. Seriously? With three Jedi attacking him, should he really have taken the trouble to incapacitate the Jedi? Thann had not surrendered, he was still fighting, still a threat.I agree that Jacen had other things to worry about, but all he could have done was maim him or knock him unconscous, killing him was not necessary. Think back to Swarm War when Luke had to fight both Raynar Thul and Lomi Plo. He still didn't kill Raynar and yet lived. Jacen can do the same. Whether Mara has any right to try and stop him is debatable, because Ben was not being brainwashed, merely thought, and Jacen wasn't taking over the galaxy illegally. BUT lets just say that Mara has the right to try and stop Jacen. Well then, Jacen has every right to defend himself, and to kill her.Jacen is a Sith and needs to be stopped before doing any more harm. After all, he had already murdered Ailyn Vel and Nelani Dinn and Cakhmaim and Meewalh. Where does it ever say so? Even Ben doesn't believe it happened that way.It doesn't HAVE to say. It is obvious. Alright, Kashyyyk was a mistake because of two things: one, Niathals betrayal, and two, Tenel Ka's betrayal. Jacen failed to calculate the extent to which his actions would affect Tenel Ka, and lost a valuable ally. But otherwise, it was a brilliant military move, one that should have paid off, although it does seem like a maneuvre for the side with disadvantage to me.Brillaint....I would say morally wrong, cruel, murderous, crazy, insane, ect. Murdering innocent people for the betterment of society is not right, and I don't see how it is a brillaint move either. QFT. In fact, it wasn't him "becoming" co-Chief of State, it was him being appointed co-Chief of State.BUt don't forget it was by his persuasion that Niathal appointed him. No no no. Isolder's execution was a show of power...despite what Caedus wanted to believe. I don't see how anyone can justify that. The Imperials actually sneaked into the Anakin Solo to inject Isolder! Jacen knew how capable they were of doing something like that.And killing Isolder stopped their attack....Um...no. Killing Isolder helped nothing and only made Caedus more murderous. Daala Count- 20 and counting ****************************************************** Then the forlorn look left her face, replaced by a slight smile. "After all, everything I tell you is a lie." Jacen cleared his throat. "That is an interesting turn of phrase." *********************************************** "You'll send a skiff?" Caedus fumed. "Tenel Ka, you can't believe I'm going to surrender- to you or anyone else." "I am hoping you will," Tenel Ka's voice was sad but firm. "because it is going to break my heart to open fire on you." ************************************************* Hapans Rule All. ************* 
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Uliah |
#1498 | |||
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Posts: 3804 06/29/08 4:10 PM |
Jacen is a Sith and needs to be stopped before doing any more harm.The problem is that when Anon saw the movies he got confused about the whole thing. He thinks the Sith are the good guys and he can't understand why the Jedi eventually always come out on top.
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Zinnos |
Sith | #1499 | ||
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Posts: 10188 06/29/08 4:11 PM
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I think he just believes what Jacen believes, though we believe something totally different.
Daala Count- 20 and counting ****************************************************** Then the forlorn look left her face, replaced by a slight smile. "After all, everything I tell you is a lie." Jacen cleared his throat. "That is an interesting turn of phrase." *********************************************** "You'll send a skiff?" Caedus fumed. "Tenel Ka, you can't believe I'm going to surrender- to you or anyone else." "I am hoping you will," Tenel Ka's voice was sad but firm. "because it is going to break my heart to open fire on you." ************************************************* Hapans Rule All. *************
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Anonymous170694 |
#1500 | |||
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Posts: 701 06/29/08 9:51 PM |
Nope. When I saw the Sith in the movies, I felt they (especially Sidious) were one-dimensional characters of evil. Thats one reason why I don't like the
movies much. Thats also why I like the idea of a Sith that is working for the good of the galaxy.
"No no no. Isolder's execution was a show of power...despite what Caedus wanted to believe. I don't see how anyone can justify that." He didn't want to kill Isolder. "And killing Isolder stopped their attack....Um...no. Killing Isolder helped nothing and only made Caedus more murderous." He thought he could stop their attack
Suddenly Jacen could see his challenge, and the prospect terrified him. He would have to kill those he most loved. He would have to kill Tenel Ka and his
precious daughter, his Allana. The fact that even the thought of it was tearing out his heart was the terrible proof that it had to be so.
And still he could hardly bear think it. The Yuuzhan Vong thought they knew all there was to know about inflicting pain, but they were beginners compared to this. How could he even think it? Jacen put his right hand to his face and touched it, as if it weren't his own. He felt as if he were standing over by the far wall, watching himself die by degrees. Is it me? Is it really my burden? Yes, Grandfather. It's me. Jacen accepted the burden in its entirety, and his heart- irrelevant, fragile, expendable- broke. ______________________________________________________________________ "Something to remember the next time you decide to play the Hapan game of bloodletting and backstabbing." Jacen Solo to the "Esteemed Queen Mother of the Hapan Consortium" |
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